Posts by Visionary Man

37

re: Taking a balanced view of the allegations?

by Visionary Man in

this is my first post on this forum.

i am by all accounts a witness, if not an ideal one.

in light of the reaction after the panorama program i have seen a mixed variety of responses.

Visionary Man

"Some of these elders may speak words of wisdom, but act worse than the people that they condemn"

Some do yes. But this is not a majority as the Panorama program or certain individuals would have us think.

Additionaly I certainly do not make excuses for those who do not adhere to the wisdom of the bible. I do not even make excuses for myself who, incidently, is neither perfect. Nor do I necessarily live up to some of the advice I have given others.

It is not my business to excuse anyone. That is Jehovah's perogative. If I am *personally* chastised by anyone, then it is my business to excuse that person and a christ like attitude do just that. However even the society admits that in the event of some gross sins that forgiveness can be impossible. I do not have personal experience of anything like that being perpetrated to myself, but I think that the case of child abuse is one of those situations.

We should all worry, in the first instance, about our own relationship with God. Jehovah knows the problem. Do you trust in him to put things right at Armageddon?

Visionary Man

37

re: Taking a balanced view of the allegations?

by Visionary Man in

this is my first post on this forum.

i am by all accounts a witness, if not an ideal one.

in light of the reaction after the panorama program i have seen a mixed variety of responses.

Visionary Man

ItsJustlittleoldme,

"I agree, do they give this same lattitude to other religions, like the Catholics? If not, isn't that not only being hyper-critical of them, but also hypocritical?"

The catholics are critisized for their interference in gonverment affairs and their responsibility for numerous wars, as are man other religious institutes. Jehovah's Witnesses do not get involved in these things and *do* remain neutral. I certainly wouldn't penalise an individual in any organisation for believing the doctrines of their religion whether those doctrines are misguided or not. Remember that the people at the top are individuals too and so their interpretation of scripture is as much their own as the person at the bottom.

"Different scenario.. If you KNOW that something is wrong, but you teach it anyway, you are responsible for the wrong teaching.. If I taught you how to make an atom bomb, and you decided to go out and kill someone, yeah, I'd feel guilty.. However, if I knew that you were going to use it to kill someone, I would feel responsible if I taught it to you...

If I teach you that commiting murder is ok, even though I personally do not believe it is ok, then not only have I committed a gross sin against god for teaching you to murder, but I've also committed a gross sin against god for going against my own conscience! "

Why do you believe that the GB KNOW that what they are saying is wrong when they teach it? Jehovah's witnesses don't kill people either. They *do* try to promote a higher moral sense. Just because someone is limited in their perception, doesn't mean that they have malcious intent. Neither do I believe that Jehovah God would hold the GB responsible for teaching something wrong. He would only hold them responsible for directing them away from God... which I certainly don't think they do.

"I agree with you, yet I get the impression that many JW's do not agree with this statement.. They follow the F&DS blindly! I'm sure there has been at least one thing that the F&DS has stated that you do not completely agree with. In that case, did you 'lay down' and follow the man made policy, or did you just ignore it? And did you teach it?"

(what does F&DS stand for?) I've never followed man made policy unless it fitted in with my own scriptural knowledge. My own knowledge expands and my agreement with policies and other perceptions changes with study. I again don't believe anyone should aggrevate someone for following a policy which they believe to be true. What should be identified as wrong though is whether or not we ourselves are studying enough to ensure that the ideas we follow are correct.

"Thank you for your answers, I guess the reason I was asking is because I have a very hard time understanding how someone can see that the organiztation is NOT directed by god (Not inspired), yet hang on and follow every word the GB says, even if it means their life or the life of their child (blood issue, for example).. "

I do not hang on every word the GB says. I think that has been made evident so far. The blood issue, to me, is quite clear however. I do not follow the GB on that, I follow the bible.

"Do you believe that the organization is god' s sole channel of communication here on Earth as they claim to be? "

I believe the *bible* is the sole channel of communication by God. Anything thoughts beyond that would depend on whether or not I percieve those as being in harmony with God's spirit.

Which brings me to my second point.

What is Holy Spirit?

It is the opposite of the spirit of the world. It is the essence of Jehovah's personality manifested by the direction of his will. If something is done in God's spirit then it is something he would agree with. Jesus is a perfect reflection of God's spirit in that he never did anything which God would see as unfit. His thoughts we're in total harmony with God's thoughts. Today we can manifest a godly spirit or obtain Holy Spirit by imitating christ.

I do not believe that spirit is synonomous with Power. Nor do I believe it to be a mystical "wind" which nobody can quite put their finger on as to what that actually is.

In summary and in answer to ugg and searchforthetruth the elders are spirit appointed only as far as those who offer them a position of oversight have done so in imitation of christ and looked for the christ like qualities within that individual. If the elders or the GB appoint a peaodophile as an overseer, then they have either failed to apply God's Spirit or they are evidenceing their lack of telepathic ability.

They are only human after all.

Visionary Man

37

re: Taking a balanced view of the allegations?

by Visionary Man in

this is my first post on this forum.

i am by all accounts a witness, if not an ideal one.

in light of the reaction after the panorama program i have seen a mixed variety of responses.

Visionary Man

plmkrzy,

Not not quite sure what you mean. Expand...

Visionary Man

37

re: Taking a balanced view of the allegations?

by Visionary Man in

this is my first post on this forum.

i am by all accounts a witness, if not an ideal one.

in light of the reaction after the panorama program i have seen a mixed variety of responses.

Visionary Man

Nanoprobe,

Terrible situation and I certainly couldn't justify anything to anyone. If your post is true then it is a sorry circumstance which should have been prevented.

As long as you do not blame God for this grave problem (and I'm sure you'll understand why I say that) then all I can say is that all will be put right in the New Order.

Small consolation now I know, but don't underestimate it's power. Jehovah know's what's going on and will take action in the future. For now take the action you see fit.

I'm curious though, if this peodaphile was convicted, why isn't he in Jail now?

Visionary Man

37

re: Taking a balanced view of the allegations?

by Visionary Man in

this is my first post on this forum.

i am by all accounts a witness, if not an ideal one.

in light of the reaction after the panorama program i have seen a mixed variety of responses.

Visionary Man

In reply to ItsJustlittleoldme I must just say that I kinda know I'm setting myself up here for a bashing but here we go.

"1.) Does Jehovah work through Holy spirit?"

Personally this is an issue which I believe again has a wooly answer from the society. However this isn't relavent to this post.

"2.) The society clearly (as you even admit with their 'bible based' pedophile policy) has misinterpreted bible scripture before (Example: At one time, getting an organ transplant was cannibalism -- now it's not; another example - their bible based interpretation of Generation has recently changed) so how can you claim that the organization is needed in obtaining the 'neccesary information about Christ'? -- More over, if you think for yourself, is there anything else you disagree with on the organization? Do you agree with all their doctrines and policies? Some of them are wrong, you know.. After all, they do not have 'all the light'.. Can you give me just one doctrine that the organization has that they have stated there is no need for new light on? (I.E. Absolute truth about Christ)?"

I've heard these issues slogged to death. No the witnesses don't have everything right. But then to insinuate that someone can't be wrong while they learn what is right is hyper-critical.

"3.) As stated in my point above, if you teach someone something, are you in essence taking the 'lead' and then become responsible for that person? (As they state the elders are responsible for the rest of the flock?).. Teaching elevates you to the position of a responsible person, and by bringing others into the flock elevates you to being responsible for them."

If a teacher educates an individual nuclear science, he can either use the knowledge to make a bomb or power millions of homes. The student's choices will always be their own.

"4.) "Do not look to other humans as an exclusive means to this end and never accept or lay down on man made policies."

A.) Do you mean OTHER humans besides the organization?"

ANY Human.

"B.) What is so special about the humans that run the organization? They have made mistakes, they are not perfect, so what differentiates them from the rest of the world?"

Nothing potentialy. We should try to be different from the world though when "the world" is used in the context of opposition to God.

" C.) Does the organization have any man-made policies themselves? Or do their policies originate with Jehovah?

a.) If they originate from man, why are you following them (Pharisee)?

b.) If they origianate from Jehovah, does that mean that Jehovah has directly told them these policies?

1a.) If Jehovah has told them these policies directly, why have they needed to adjust them -- Did Jehovah NOT tell them an accurate policy?

1b.) If Jehovah did not tell them directly, what is your proof that Jehovah did indeed send them to the organization?

2b.) Once you show 'proof' of Jehovah's sending them the policies, answer questin 1a please."

I certainly don't believe that the society is divinely inspired if that's what you mean. They aren't like the Kings of Israel, the Prophets or the Apostles.

Hope these answers are frank enough.

Visionary Man

37

re: Taking a balanced view of the allegations?

by Visionary Man in

this is my first post on this forum.

i am by all accounts a witness, if not an ideal one.

in light of the reaction after the panorama program i have seen a mixed variety of responses.

Visionary Man

"Since when do you need an ORGANIZATION to help you get close to God?"

Since Christ nipped off to Heaven to set up the kingdom and apostate christianity had a field day with the doctrines.

"Can't seem to find that requirement anywhere in your Bible..."

It's not a *requirement*. It's just a very good idea.

Visionary Man

37

re: Taking a balanced view of the allegations?

by Visionary Man in

this is my first post on this forum.

i am by all accounts a witness, if not an ideal one.

in light of the reaction after the panorama program i have seen a mixed variety of responses.

Visionary Man

This is my first post on this forum. I am by all accounts a witness, if not an ideal one. :)

In light of the reaction after the Panorama program I have seen a mixed variety of responses. There is plenty of the "head in sand" variety, quite a few reserved judgements and a few doubters too. The elders reaction in my congregation to a friend of mine who had been abused as a child was respectable and their discussions with that individual made no excuses but reaffirmed the sense of the societies policies.

However my own personal view is this, and I would welcome peoples thoughts on my opinion.

When I chose to become a witness in my own right (I was brought up in the organisation by my mother / divded household) I made the choice based on the fact that I could not fault the societies motives in general. I speculated about the possibility that the organisation was a money making venture, or that it was nothing more than a power trip by various eccentric individuals. I attempted to assertain the accuracy of the society's thoughts and interpretations of scripture and I looked for pitfalls.

I still reserve judgment on all of those issues. I got baptised because I could not prove thier motives otherwise. There are issues and interpretations that I still disagree with now, but I can not fault the fact that ultimately, Jehovah's Witnesses are the best (to my knowledge) organisation for helping individuals get close to God. This view may have been different if I was in a different congregation however.

I feel that the issue with peadaphiles should not be used as a mud slinging activity. And I certainly don't agree with the insinuation by the program of the organisation as having bad motives at this stage. However on careful review of the societies policies I do believe that the organisation has a very wooly approach to this issue. The policies may not be there to protect Peodaphiles, but it does because of the way that the society directs its followers to thmeselves as being the primary authority and not the police.

There are obviously resons for this and that is another debate entirely. But the crux of my view of recent events is that the society has been proved negligent by their lack of action within individual congregations. I am not impressed. However I certainly do not condemn the society for this since I do not expect much more from human beings.

The answer?

Look only to Christ as a means of seeing God. Use the society as a means of obtaining the neccesary information to learn about Christ. Work with the society to further aid that process for others. Do not look to other humans as an exclusive means to this end and never accept or lay down on man made policies. People, think for yourselves!!! Make the truth *your own*.

Best Regards,
Visionary Man